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Faction Wars
By speciallist Posted in Archived — Comments (119) / Email this page » / Leave a comment »
There is no hatred
Deeper than between brothers
So close the distance
Deeper than between brothers
So close the distance
I love Haiku..but I digress...
During the elections of 2006, and shortly after, The two major political parties crumbled. Anarchy ruled the land for nearly a year. However, when the dust cleared there was many factions left standing, each with it's own idea for government, each with it's own goals.
For those in Rio linda..
A political faction is a grouping of individuals in a political party, a trade union, or other group with a political agenda. It may also be referred to as a voting bloc. The individuals are united in a set of common goals for the faction they are a part of. They band together to achieve these goals and advance their agenda and position within the party.
A faction could be described as a “group within a group”. It is important to note that factions are not limited to political parties. They can and frequently do form within any group that has some sort of aim or purpose.
Unlike many procedures that ascertain effectiveness, value, and proper function of whether you are liberal or conservative, I will try to place you on a two-dimensional grid consisting of your views and the depth of your beliefs.
There are so many new and exciting factions to choose from...Which one will you join?
Fred heads
This is the grassroots faction that would have liked to see Fred Thompson win the Whitehouse. Between his acting career and stint as senator, Fred has become one of the most recognizable politicians in America. Fred has served as Republican Senator of Tennessee from 1994 to 2003. Fred heads think Fred would be able to restore confidence and order to our Great Country. This faction thinks Fred has the courage and integrity to be America's next Commander in Chief.
Dead heads
Fred Heads frustrated With Their Idol's Ambiguity.
Many in this movement to nudge Fred Thompson for the presidential race grew baffled with the actor's unwillingness to start his campaign earlier despite traveling the country and holding fundraisers. The time was right, Thompson lost the Deadhead support he needed because he waited to long to make his candidacy official.
Soft heads
Dedicated to uniting Americans in support of Mitt Romney for President in 2008. He was the one candidate that the conservative republican base rallied to.
In a way, they feel that it is partially their fault that McCain got the nod. They had Mitt in front of them forever, and they kept hoping for something "better" to come along before they endorsed. Suddenly McCain was leading. They all rallied to Mitt's side. Unfortunately it was too late.
Rudy dudes
This faction started what was intended to be a launch pad for Rudy Giuliani's 2008 presidential bid, as well as an 'action faction' for social conservatives who already supported him for President.
They had chosen Rudy Giuliani as their candidate of preference because they appreciated his experience as the executive of a large, complex, and diverse population center (New York City) and his successes in reducing taxes, spending, crime, and improving many of the city's functions. Importantly, they also felt that he was electable.
Con mods or Strong mods
This morning some will look at this blog and find that they are a "moderate conservative".
These are people whose basic instincts are fairly moderate but who are very strongly identified with one party and thoroughly hostile to the other.
Part of the problem they have is their tendency to stick a finger into the air to see which directional the political winds are blowing, and then, either consciously or unconsciously, tack into the wind. If this was a very liberal administration and/or country, they would appear more conservative.
Civ mods
The essential dilemma for these Civil moderates, as articulated well by commentators like Dennis Prager and poorly by 90% of other conservatives, is that while many in the center-right wish to conserve traditional standards of behavior, they also recognize that attempts to do so require one to exclude, to some degree, those who don't choose to conform to those guidelines. Neutral and hostile observers most always perceive this as discrimination, a lack of compassion, or just plain 'meanness' in their stance.
The approach Civil moderates propose allows the 'moderate' to participate in a fighting retreat without breaking bonds of friendship or themselves risking social alienation.
Mid mods or New mods
These moderates are no longer a featureless midpoint between the extremes of right and left. They are a movement about to be born. If they succeed, they can stop the domination of America by extremist ideologues of both camps -- without silencing their voices. They are opinionated, they are impassioned. So take heart, all you embattled Mid mods, the middle is about to strike back.
Snob mods
This faction is more moderate than their voting record since most of their votes are of a protest nature. There is an interesting phenomenon that has arisen over the last few months, a trend of moderate Republicans who want to vote for Barack Obama. It may seem counterintuitive, conservatives supporting a candidate who wants to tax the wealthy and embrace the conventions in the Kyoto Accord, but there is something in Obama's lies ...message about ridding politics of partisanship that is appealing to these 'so-called' Conservatives.
Lib mods
Watch out. Liberal moderates. This faction feels that nowhere in the USA is safe from the prying eyes of the government any more. This group feels that the Department of Homeland Security is set to train spy satellites, which are very busy tracking terrorists, on domestic soil. Don't worry, says Homeland Security Director Michael Chertoff, the government will obtain warrants when it needs to before unleashing its Sauron-like All-Seeing Eye. Why don't they believe Michael Chertoff is telling the truth?
Can one be both moderate and liberal? They believe so. In fact, they believe a true moderate almost has to be a liberal moderate to be true to his or her convictions. They believe they need to tolerate the right. They don't need to accept religious fundamentalism, but they need to tolerate it while simultaneously rejecting their intolerance of same. It isn't easy.
Neo cons or New cons
Neoconservatism is a political philosophy that emerged in the United States from the rejection of social liberalism and the New Left counterculture of the 1960s. It influenced the presidential administrations of Ronald Reagan, George H. W. Bush, and George W. Bush, representing a realignment in American politics, and the defection of some liberals to the right side of the political spectrum, (is this what happened to gamecock?) hence the term, which refers to being 'new' conservatives.
Neoconservatism emphasizes foreign policy as the paramount responsibility of government, seeing America's role as the world's sole superpower as indispensable to establishing and maintaining global order.
The term neoconservative was originally used as a criticism against liberals who had "moved to the right".
Top-notch neoconservative periodicals are Commentary and The Weekly Standard.
So cons
Social conservatism is a political or moral ideology that affirms behaviors associated with society's traditions. However, the accepted meaning of traditional morality often differs from group to group within social conservatism. There are really no policies or positions that could be considered universal among social conservatives. There are, however, a number of principles to which at least a majority of social conservatives adhere.
- pro-life views on abortion
- promotion of heterosexual marriage, and disapproval of sexual immorality
- protection of key American industries like defense, certain raw materials, and agriculture from foreign competition
- focus on stronger families and not big government for teaching values
- opposition to federal financing for embryonic stem-cell research
- protection of 2nd Amendment rights
- opposed to illegal immigration
- lower taxes with spending focused on education, defense, and infrastructure
- placement of tariffs on countries that do not uphold human rights
Fis cons or Econ cons
Fiscal conservatism is a political term used to describe advocacy of lower governmental spending practices and a lower federal debt, it may also include higher taxes in order to lower the debt.
Fiscal Conservatism was rhetorically promoted during the presidency of Ronald Reagan (1981-1989). During his tenure, Reagan touted economic policies that became known as Reaganomics. Based on the theory of supply-side economics, Reagan cut income taxes, raised social security taxes, deregulated the economy, and instituted a tight monetary policy to stop inflation.
Cult cons
Cultural conservatism is increasingly used in political debate, but is rather ill-defined. This faction argues for the preservation of a nation's domestic culture, usually in the face of external forces for change.
For example....A Cultural conservative in Australia may object to importing movies or TV shows from the United States, believing that they would have a negative effect on native Australian values. He could argue that American society is fundamentally different from Australian society in many key ways, and that constant exposure to American culture causes emulation of American values, with negative results.
Crunch cons
Crunchy Cons or Birkenstocked Burkeans are gun-loving organic gardeners, evangelical free-range farmers, hip home schooling mamas, right-wing nature lovers, and their diverse tribe of counter cultural conservatives. They have a plan to save America (or at least the Republican Party).
There some basic areas that are touchstones for Crunchy conservatives. Religion, the Natural World, Beauty, and Family.
They are conservatives who stand outside the conservative mainstream, they think they can see things that matter more clearly. They feel Modern conservatism has become too focused on money and power, and insufficiently concerned with the content of our individual and social character. They think Big business deserves as much skepticism as big government.
Small, Local, Old, and Particular are almost always better than Big, Global, New, and Abstract.
Beauty is more important than efficiency.
Move cons
This group feels they must inform America what it is up against as it struggles with what they feel are conservative-caused economic problems. These Movement conservatives demand total control and they will stomp anyone in their way. It is about pure power. There is no discussion or compromise in them.
Hear that, Obama? How do you make your Kumbaya politics work with the likes of Rick Santorum on the other side?
They feel that Giuliani would have been better than McCain...they realize that Giuliani is bad on some issues like abortion, but at least he wouldn't cross the aisle with out so much as batting an eye...like some people.
Nat cons
National conservatism is a political term used primarily in Europe to describe a variant of conservatism which concentrates more on national interests than standard conservatism. Many National conservatives you could say are Social conservatives.
According to one Austrian scholar, "National conservatism praises the family as a home and a center of identity, solidarity and emotion."
Nat cons can be said to fill the political gap between established centre-right and the nationalist far right.
Lib cons
Right-libertarianism, more commonly called Libertarian conservatism. This factions ideologies are things such as limited government and capitalism. Its four main sub-factions are traditional libertarianism, neolibertarianism, paleolibertarianism, and small government conservatism.
Notable right-libertarians include Barry Goldwater and Ron Paul.
The main goal of classical Lib cons is shrinking the power of coercive government and to promote free markets. They support economically conservative goals such as cutting taxes and government spending, a balanced budget, reforming, privatizing or ending programs such as welfare and Social Security.
Paleo cons
Paleo conservatism is a term for an anti-communist and anti-authoritarian right wing movement that stresses tradition, civil society and classical federalism, along with familial, religious, regional, national and Western identity. Paleo conservatives often focus on their points of disagreement with Neo conservatives, especially on issues like immigration, affirmative action, U.S. funding of Israeli military actions, foreign wars, and welfare. They see themselves as the legitimate heir to the American conservative tradition. Patrick Buchanan helped create a famous Paleocon publication, The American Conservative.
Bio cons
Bio conservatism has focused its scrutiny on technological development, especially if it is seen as threatening a given social order. Bio conservative positions include opposition to genetic modification of food crops, the cloning and genetic engineering of farm animals and animals of any sort for that matter, and rejection of the genetic modification of human beings, including Cloning.
The Bio conservative perspective is characterized by its defense of the natural.
Bio conservative sub-factions range in perspective from right-leaning religious and Cultural conservatives to left-leaning environmentalists.
Prog cons
The Progressive Conservative has a centre-right stance on economic issues and a centrist stance on social issues.
This mix of ideology and discontent has led to ongoing plans of forming an independent party.
Kiddy cons, Camp cons, Contemp cons
This is a new breed of College conservative. You cant ignore them, because they will help shape the Republican Party in the years to come.
Some of you are rolling your eyes.....'young people'...
Young conservatives hate Hillary Clinton, love Ronald Reagan, support George W. Bush and denounce Osama bin Laden. I think we all can agree on that.
Campus conservatives who hope to be effective won't dress like George Bush or Dick Cheney. There are plenty of ragged T-shirts, backward baseball caps and frayed jeans.
As I always say, being conservative can be cool, not just something that wacko people in South Carolina do.....But what really distinguishs the Kiddy cons from their elders is many members endorse same-sex unions and some outright support gay marriages and all the rights a married couple is afforded.
Reli cons
The Christian right. Christian political and social movements and organizations characterized by their strong support of conservative social and political values. The politically active Christian right includes sub-factions from a wide range of theological beliefs, from moderately traditional movements within Lutheranism and Catholicism to theologically more conservative movements such as Evangelicalism, Pentecostalism and Fundamentalist Christianity. Say that Ten times.
Pick the faction that you most connect with. Make one up. Or....Bash me for not getting the definition right.
Or Bash my Lakers....
But above all....Have fun and come together to insure we WIN this election and the one after that....and the one after that..and so on...and so on...
I was talking to one of my tenants the other day. She is clueless about politics except for what she sees on TV. She proudly says shes a Republican...great. So she says "What do you think about whats going on..." And I said "Whats going on.." She says "Have you heard about all the Republicans...they Hate McCain.."
"he'll throw us a smelly bone, and the results will be no different than if a democrat were in the white house. NO different."....moijea
amen Pilgrim - nt
by gamecock
Mike DeVine’s Charlotte Observer columns
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson
11 n/t
by Joliphant
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
-Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777
Agreed! n/t.
by Herodotus
...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right...
---Thomas Paine---
5! Pilgrim persistently gets to the point, as usual!
by streetwise
nt
Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion
I guess I'm a LibCon or Prog Con
by shooflyguy68
I can't really tell the difference based on your description. I could also be a FisCon according to your defintion. I think this is a good first attempt to "label" our factions but I'm looking forward to seeing how the members respond and adjust the definitions.
SL, I commend you on this
by E Pluribus Unum
This is a very ambitious diary - knowing that almost anybody from any of these (real or imagined) groups will take exception with some portion of some definition, and probably will.
I believe I understand your primary point to be that in spite of many differences between many factions, we now have a great opportunity and a great need to come together and get McCain and a bunch of other Republicans elected so we can get on with our broader agendas.
I have the feeling other readers are going to just gnaw on all your definitions and take all the fun out of what I think is a very fun diary.
And for the record, I think you missed somewhat on the Fredheads - it ain't about Fred anymore, it's about Burke/Kirk conservatism. Although by placing the Fredheads first in this list, I'll allow that you placed the proper group on top!
Unfair. Unbalanced. Unmedicated. -- IMAO
:laughing: 5 nt
by Jaded
Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion
"readers are going to just gnaw on all your definitions "
by speciallist
Yes.....Bring it on..
Get it all out of your system..and then come together
Re-read the part about my tenant...this is going to kill us if we dont do something about it.
I seemed like a tounge-in-cheek
by Mord
Dictionary to me. It actually helped me out on alot of what people here are taking about, since I am new to all of this. Well done! Thank you.
Pride is a Fool's Fortress.
on fredheads
by absentee
I don't think I agree with your redefining of Fredheads E. There are Burke/Kirk conservatives who were not Fredheads, and vice versa. You can't expect Fredheads to lay claim to the sole possession of philosophical conservative without someone objecting can you? For example, I maintain that some philosophical conservatives could have very practical, conservative goal-oriented reasons for having supported, say, McCain instead of Fred : ) It just seems presumptive of the fredheads of late to take possession of the tenets, so to speak.
But to the larger point speciallist, it's a function of the process of trying to define individuals by these terms that such a dispute arises. Anyone who makes decisions through a critical reasoning process coupled with their own opinions and tested against their moral beliefs will find they are a spectrum, not a category. I think so, anyway.
absentee
Also now available at Political Machine.
I don't see that jump, absentee
by E Pluribus Unum
At what point have I said that Fredhead = Kirk/Burke in a two-way equation (i.e., if you are Kirkian, you must be pay homage to the altar of Fred?). Not here and not anywhere have I done that. I have neither DONE nor IMPLIED that. Where I use Fredhead to identify myself and my peeps, I have explained MANY TIMES that it's JUST a handy appellage.
I most definitely have staked out the claim that what *I* am calling Fredhead is Burkean/Kirkian/Hamiltonian/federalist. Sure, I am guilty and proud of it. I just don't see the need for you to feel that in so doing I'm saying that *only* Fredheads can subscribe to those philosophies.
In fact, in case my previous meanings have been unclear:
--I hereby wholeheartedly invite ALL Republicans, and people of every sort of branch in the conservative tree (milcons, socons, fiscons, neocons, paleocons, Texcons, Linuxcons, Maccons, whatever) to study and embrace the conservative traditions espoused and articulated by Goldwater, Reagan, Hamilton, Kirk, Burke, Buckley, and others. Come on in, the water is fine!
--Further, I invite you to do so, and you DON'T have to call yourself a Fredhead.
--For you who call yourselves Fredheads, I release you from any loyalty qualms you may have - you are free to support McCain with gusto. In fact I would go so far as to say that where we sit right now in May 08, you had BEST support McCain with some ardence.
OK, I don't see my peeps as having "taken possession" of the tenets. But we do feel a need to start articulating them at this particular juncture, because nobody else is. They are absolutely, IMHO, the best governing philosophy for a free people. That's why we care, and frankly that's why the Fredheads are.....Fredheads.
And just for the record I want to point out - the Fredheadedness 2 diary had not one iota of McCain-bashing. Not in the diary, not in the comments. I don't want to hear it.
Unfair. Unbalanced. Unmedicated. -- IMAO
while in other ways, reading too little.
This diary is a tongue-in-cheek satire of the battles that have occurred on this site over the past 12 months.
I can see how the first couple of categories are "straight" but if you read carefully through to the end you will realize that much of this diary is a carricature of the Center-Right.
I must admit that my natural proclivity was to dive in 100% as well.
We have to face up to the truth that this caricature is not that different from the reality. That is a sign of serious trouble.
Well, J, just so you know
by E Pluribus Unum
absentee and I are great friends, we have deep and passionate beliefs that are alike in the broad strokes but differ in the details. And we both tend to argue in long paragraphs.
We're all cool, don't worry.
Unfair. Unbalanced. Unmedicated. -- IMAO
No, I know all that
by JSobieski
what I am saying is, that the diary was intended to be an over the top caricature of the fractured GOP, and that we are so used to arguing with each other, that we did not necessarily see the non-serious intent.
In other words, we are in danger of becoming indistinguishable from our caricature--not a good sign.
Well, *I* got that part
by E Pluribus Unum
which is why I said it was cool that Fredheads were listed first, since we're best.
And since I noted that many people could not resist poking holes in various detail, I then proceeded to "not resist", by saying he got Fredheads wrong.
Unfair. Unbalanced. Unmedicated. -- IMAO
EPU can define Fred heads Much better than I can..
by speciallist
n/t
"Face it, we aren't going to win. I'd start buying gold and hiding cash under my mattress in preparation for the ultra Dem. Congress and the ObamaMessiah and Princess Pouty Face's Socialist! Paradise!".....Illinidiva
fredhead
by absentee
You must see the problem here is the title. You say fredhead has nothing to do with fred? I vote for abandoning the title altogether. It's unsuitable and leads to an a clearly exclusionary implication, merely by virtue of the name.
How about RED headedness? No, not right.
How about ... .... ....... ok I got nothing. But something else. Or it will forever suggest precisely the implications I outlined above.
I know you didn't mccain bash in that diary. Who said you did? I'll bash them good!
absentee
Also now available at Political Machine.
Hmm, I have a suggestion
by simpson316
No, man, don't do that
by E Pluribus Unum
Putting one of your corporals up there in the 4-star general's spot, man, no.
Unfair. Unbalanced. Unmedicated. -- IMAO
giving up the name
by E Pluribus Unum
Not to split hairs, but when I say "it's not about Fred [anymore]", it's not totally *bereft* of Fred. Fred, the man, rekindled the long-dormant vision of federalism-meets-Kirkianism in many of us - and hence the name. Because you find it inflammatory and divisive does not make it so for us. I don't understand your sensitivity to it.
First it was (from the McCain crowd) "Hey, quit saying you won't vote for McCain". When that ceased to be a large problem, then it became, "Hey quit saying that McCain is not a conservative" -- which remains, and will continue to be a 'problem'.
But now it's "Hey, quit calling yourselves Fredheads". It's asking too much. We're not changing our name.
Unfair. Unbalanced. Unmedicated. -- IMAO
It's not splitting hairs
by absentee
You're explicitly naming conservative philosophy fredheadedness. I don't see how you don't see that as exclusionary. It seems obvious to me that the flip side of the coin is that if you aren't a fredhead then you don't subscribe to conservative philosophy. As we are all getting so fond of saying, it has nothing to do with McCain. I don't like the idea of "True" conservative and "Fred voter" being synonymous. I don't agree with that.
All this designating of who is the "real" conservative, with regard to voters, is divisive by nature, not by my design ... as should be amply evident in practice.
absentee
Also now available at Political Machine.
we're not getting anywhere with this
by E Pluribus Unum
I don't really see it like we're doing that.
Unfair. Unbalanced. Unmedicated. -- IMAO
well ...
by absentee
Technically we are getting somewhere. To the right and down the page with each subsequent reply.
I can see your point of view. You are looking at a group of people, Fredheads, and defining their purpose moving forward.
My point is that your blogs on the topic serve a role greater than your intended purpose. Your blog on conservative thought was excellent, marred only by the link to Fredheadedness. It is not that you define what Fredheads are about that is the problem. The problem is that in so doing you are conflating the two. I'm not suggesting ill-will here. I'm saying that, as one of those who is defining and illuminating conservative thought at a major blog, you should unshackle yourself from the inevitable and unavoidable entanglements you create by identifying your blogs on the very topic as being about "fredheadedness". Simply saying "it's not about Fred" won't be satisfactory.
If indeed your wish is to both persuade and educate, I suggest you are doing yourself a disservice by marrying it to a single campaign, from a single election year, particulary one that never really took off. How much better to be "A Kirk, a Burke and a Pizza place", or, alternately, something clever? How many didn't read your blog due to the title, or read it askance?
It's time for a divorce. If you must tie your philosophy blogging to a political personality, I implore you to choose Reagan. Fredheadedness is about Fred. Fredheads may be all the other things you say, in fact I'm sure they are, but Fredheadedness is about Fred. Being about conservative goals deserves a more encompassing title.
absentee
Also Find Me Here.
being much bigger than Fred.
Mike DeVine’s Charlotte Observer columns
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson
And we aren't saying it isn't.
by NightTwister
Others are saying we're saying it is, and they're wrong. We call it fredheadedness. You can call it whatever the hell you want. We can both mean the same thing, and just because we use the word fredheadedness doesn't mean we're excluding others.
I'm really getting sick and tired of others telling us what we mean, even when we explain that's not what we mean when people ask.
hmmm
by absentee
Like I said, I'm not positing ill will here. You can hope to mean whatever you like. Whether it's being communicated in any meaningful way is a different question. Not sure why it's so important to clutch the fred title anyway. It's unecessarily provocative. And it's exclusionary whether you want it or mean it that way or not. Put yourself in the shoes of someone supporting one of the other candidates.
absentee
Also Find
Me Here.
I don't hope anything.
by NightTwister
This has been said before, but I'll say it again. Fred is simply the person that most recently promoted these conservative ideas best in my mind. It's shorthand for, what Fred said.
I certainly don't know why it would be provocative. Fred lost. By a lot. I have no illusions that he'll have any influence in this election. In my experience those that win by such a large margin aren't terribly worried about what the losers think about them.
It's not important that we clutch the Fred title. Not to me anyway. You don't see me using it (check my posts & comments, I believe my previous comment is the first time I've actually used the term, though I know what it means when others use it).
I'm not sure why you'd think it was exclusionary if I use it, based on the name that's referenced at the bottom of this comment (and previous ones of mine). Or maybe you just don't read past the part with which you disagree.
heh
by absentee
"Or maybe you just don't read past the part with which you disagree."
Now now, chillax. I was under the impression we were discussing the topic that I was discussing above, regarding referring to the "True" or "Three-legged" cons as Fredheads, or true conservativism as fredheadedness. It seems obvious to me how that would be exclusionary.
It wasn't about Night Twister saying the name Fred! I hereby grant you Fred-saying permissions in perpetuity!
absentee
Also Find Me Here.
I wish people realized
by NightTwister
how condescending that is.
I can have a lively discussion and strongly present my point without getting all worked up and having the need to chill.
And yes, that's what we were discussing, but you brought up the fact that using the term fredheadedness made you feel excluded because you're a McCain supporter.
Maybe we should just use the term foobirds in the future to make sure we aren't offending any of the abovementioned factions.
I actually know a lot of McCain supporters that are three-legged conservatives, and I really don't get all the weeping and gnashing of teeth over his nomination. Sure, I didn't get the guy I wanted, but we could've done significantly worse. The areas where I don't like McCain, I'm convinced we can fight against through congress, so I'm not terribly worried.
But if I were to use the term fredheadedness it certainly wouldn't mean I'm specifically excluding supporters of any of the primary candidates. I know there are those that supported Rudy that are three-legged conservatives.
This whole discussion smells like political-correctness.
In any case, you won't have to worry about me using the term. I'll know what others mean if and when they use it, but I've said both here and elsewhere that I think using the term hurts the cause more than it helps, because conversations always end up just like this one.
It's not divisive you son of a ....
by absentee
See where I'm going with that?
Pardon my chillax. I just meant to convey I wasn't attack you personally for using the name Fred, as you seem to think.
You still haven't got it though. It's not saying fredheadedness. AGAIN, it's using that as the TITLE or SYNONYM for "true" conservativism. How you don't find that more condescending than "chill" I can't understand.
"I've said both here and elsewhere that I think using the term hurts the cause more than it helps, because conversations always end up just like this one."
Well, that would kinda exactly be precisely exactly my point.
absentee
Also Find Me Here.
No, I don't.
by NightTwister
See where I'm going with that?
I didn't think you personally attacked me for using the name Fred. This is a discussion. Personal attacks are, "your mama wears army boots".
So if I used the term "Kirkian", or "Burkian", that wouldn't be offensive? Is that because they're old dead guys, and Fred is a contemporary with McCain?
BTW, I also don't buy into the whole True Conservative™ thing. As a matter of fact, I can give you a specific instance where I think McCain was more conservative than anyone.
His refusal to vote for the Bush Tax Cuts (because they didn't include spending cuts) was very conservative in my mind. It showed considerable responsibility and foresight (look at the spending mess we're in now).
I don't use the term, so it's not a personal issue for me. I just think people attach a lot more to it than is there. That, unfortunately, is the world in which we live.
dispute. I will now bow out of this matter and go back to p.o.ing people the old foghorn leghorn way!
Mike DeVine’s Charlotte Observer columns
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson
Sorry, GC.
by NightTwister
That really wasn't intended for you; you just got caught in the crossfire.
Mike DeVine’s Charlotte Observer columns
http://thehinzsightreport.com
www.theminorityreportblog.com
www.race42008.com
"One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson
I think what he's driving at EPU, is the modern voice
by BlackRepub
Of conservatism was Fred, and not so much the candidate but he was the quintessential 3 stooled conservative. The fact that he lost is irrelevant-certainly Barry Goldwater's landslide defeat makes him no less irrelevant to the conservative movement as a Founding Father of Conservatism. What EPU is driving at, if I may be so bold to know what he's thinking is that he is tying modern conservatism, embodied in Fred with original conservatism, embodied in Kirk,, Burker, Goldwater and others. It's never been abot Fred-it was about the movement that was, and still is Fred.
End the NewTone. Punch the hippies.
I thought about this reply for 2 days
by E Pluribus Unum
I wanted to consider all the ramifications of my instinctive answer to what you are asking me to do. In the end, I agree with my inner EPU. My answer is, that's a giant double-meat, double-cheese, Ain't Gonna Happen Burger.
Fred awoke the vision, and he most definitely preached TrueConservatism™, a brand we have not heard on a campaign trail since 1984. So yeah, I'm using Fredheadedness as a shorthand for "return to originalist conservative principles". That's what he preached, and that's what HE ALONE preached, and that's why Fredheads are Fredheads, because that's what WE preach. He deserves credit for re-awakening the movement.
And you ask for me to excise the name of the putative founder, in order to placate those who find it offensive, controversial, exclusive, or whatever. Well, I can identify only one group of people who would feel that way, and it's not McCain supporters. Lots of McCain supporters could just SO not give a hoot about a guy on RedState who is writing diaries advocating a return to original conservative principles under the banner of Fredheadedness.
The only people, as far as I can tell, who feel slighted or excluded by the term are those McCain supporters who want the freedom to INSIST that McCain is conservative.
And to those people, who are so sadly off-base, I owe nothing. 'Conservative' appears not to be a label that McCain himself particularly cares about, so why should I surrender what is so dear, to simply spare the feelings of his acolytes?
Unfair. Unbalanced. Unmedicated. -- IMAO
Listen up people..EPU just hit the Bullseye
by speciallist
"Lots of McCain supporters could just SO not give a hoot about a guy on RedState who is writing diaries advocating a return to original conservative principles under the banner of Fredheadedness. "
All you people that are offended...MAN UP!!!
Indeed he did. n/t
by c17wife
Just a typical, small town, white girl...
1st to agree with you....it's a movement not a man...ROCK ON SIR!!!!
Freedom of Religion not Freedom from Religion
Amen EPU-the movement has awakened
by BlackRepub
All ye former and present FredHeads shall unite. There is one thing that I can thank John Sidney McCain for-he has awakened the wrath of a movement that sat dead for 20 years, and now has risen again finally. Goldwater and Reagan are smiling at us from Heaven, for they know that we will not let their work die in vain...
The trouble with our friend John McCain isn't that he's ignorant, but that he knows so much that isn't so.
Thank you!
by E Pluribus Unum
And as you know, Rudyheads are always part of the family!
Unfair. Unbalanced. Unmedicated. -- IMAO
I just left before Iowa, but I never wanted his ideas to die. And the principles of the only 3 stooled conservative were powerful and great-and even though I'm socially moderate, I have my socially conservative leanings like abortion and American exceptionalism. All in all I'm a FredHead through and through, just not a Fred supporter, but I'm definitely on board as a movement con.
The trouble with our friend John McCain isn't that he's ignorant, but that he knows so much that isn't so.
Great - which
by E Pluribus Unum
as you say, reinforces the idea that Fredheadedness is a movement!
Unfair. Unbalanced. Unmedicated. -- IMAO
Um, you can't say Rudyhead.
by c17wife
That is bad, very bad. My boy calls his sisters rudyheads all the time when he gets mad.
No, no, I'm a Rudy-girl. Or maybe you could call us/them Rudy-cans.
But, Rudyhead would be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just a typical, small town, white girl...
I "heart" you EPU for this gem:
by eburke
_'Conservative' appears not to be a label that McCain himself particularly cares about, so why should I surrender what is so dear, to simply spare the feelings of his acolytes?_
Nail....meet hammer!
"All that need be done for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
stuff and nonsense
by absentee
Sorry man, but this idea of Fred as a founder of anything lacks foundation. But if you want to factionalize Redstate according to the candidates from 2008 then that's your call. I guess I'll just go be the unprincipled whore I apparently am.
absentee
Also Find Me Here.
sounded more like a Founder than the other candidates.
We can do so while still respecting and admiring you and other well-spoken McCain supporters.
Nobody serious is calling you an unprincipled whore. The comment itself defames the speaker.
the fruits of factionalizing
by absentee
I'm not a real conservative because I'm not for Fred. So I'm embracing my role as the enemy.
absentee
Also Find Me Here.
I didn't say that and don't believe that
by JSobieski
Why is it that as a McCain supporter in November 2008, it is somehow bad for me to call myself a FredHead.
I don't see the harm. I am voting for McCain---period.
I wish McCain would a little more like Fred, but that doesn't mean I am saying you and others are not real conservatives.
I am not portraying you as my enemy.
call yourself anything
by absentee
I was arguing with the ongoing effort to define true conservativism as fredheadedness, or being associated with the fredheads. I call EPU a fredhead too. But the debate was about the relabeling of true conservative.
If TrueConservatives need a nickname, I think a real leader wouldn't cause these sorts of arguments. EPU's post on conservativism caused a lot of spent effort in the comments arguing about Fred and McCain, and required a constant reminder it's not about Fred. But judging by the responses here, it is indeed about Fred.
absentee
Also Find Me Here.
Focus on the distinction
by Hooah Mac
It's not about Fred for President in 2008. It has nothing to do with the conservative credentials of supporters of any primary candidate nor of our current nominee.
It IS about Fred in the sense that he espoused the principles we believe in, and he did it on the national stage, and he did it unambiguously.
Is it that hard for you to see that admiring Fred's principles and his willingness to clearly articulate them has absolutely zero to do with who is the GOP nominee for President in 2008? Zilch. Nada. Nothing.
it's a sore spot for me Hooah
by absentee
Fred was a great personal disappointment for me. I admit I harbor some resentment.
You can't undo the primaries. They happened. I think it's a mistake to try to name the conservative movement after the guy who couldn't stir the movement enough to claim a single victory.
absentee
Also Find Me Here.
as FredHeads.
I do use the term to refer to people here at redstate who voted for Fred in the primaries, and would like McCain to sound more like Fred.
Its not exclusionary. The conservative movement as a whole is much older, larger, and more successful than Fred.
I don't think use of the term FredHead should be insulting to anyone else.
I am not suggesting that anyone else is less or more conservative than I am.
To me, the term is only suggestive of the following:
I wish McCain would sound more like Fred on a couple of issues.
In 76, I wanted Ford to sound more like Reagan.
In 96, I wanted Dole to sound more like Forbes
In 2000, I wanted McCain to sound more like Bush.
Reagan, Forbes, and Bush were far from perfect. It was just a way of supporting the nominee while still asserting a certain "maverick" status.
The one person who has no right to complain about this stuff is McCain (who I am sure could care less given our minute numbers). But I am sensitive to the concerns of McCain supporters.
Like I said
by absentee
It isn't about people being Fredheads. It's the redefining of True Conservative as Fredhead that has me all bitchy.
absentee
Also Find Me Here.
Not the point though
by Hooah Mac
Noone is naming "the movement" after him, at most some of us have named "our movement" after him, because what he inspired in us.
I was very disappointed as well, but I see the failure of his campaign differently. He was not a great campaigner, but if it had been an either/or choice between him and any of the other people running, I think he would have won the nomination easily. His message and style were not right for the field...especially not the 10 people debates with modrators playing favorites for questions. I don't hold it against him.
Just stop taking it personally. More than anything stop acting like it's some kind of negative on you. I thought you and I were on the same side, but if word choice is enough to make us fight...I'm just not sure I like where that takes us.
This is where we disagree
by absentee
"Noone is naming 'the movement' after him"
I disagree. I think a re-reading of the reply from EPU, to which I replied with the unprincipled comment, is in order. I'll do the same.
absentee
Also Find Me Here.
Ok, I reread it
by absentee
Yep, I still think I'm dead on.
but even if I grant that you and EPU are talking about some other movement, some Fred movement, I still object. Why divide the conservative movement up into factions? Wasn't the point of this blog that doing so is hurting us?
Why be part of the fredhead movement instead of the conservative movement? When EPU posts about conservative activism and philosophy, I should just move along? Wait for a non-Fredhead to cover the same topic?
If we share a purpose we should be able to share the banner. Wedging the movement in order to honor Fred is something I remain opposed to. EPU chooses to believe that is some freak byproduct of McCain. I disagree.
absentee
Also Find Me Here.
Hello?!?
by Hooah Mac
I'm not "for Fred", but I am one of a key group of Fredheads. You are making strawmen now, and I have no idea what your motivation is.
If your support of John McCain makes you feel you can't be part of a group that honors Fred's run as a crystal clear conservative, that is YOUR issue, not mine. I never said that nor even suggested it. I personally can support John McCain to win the Presidency while still having Fred's principles as my ideal. Why do you insist on suggesting there is a conflict?
Fred's not the founder of the movement.
by BrianH
He just re-awakened it. And I for one hope we don't go back to sleep.
Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.
Not a founder
by Hooah Mac
Fred was not a founder, he was a spark. His clear articulation of classic conservatism in a presidential campaign ignited brushfires in the hearts of a number of conservatives who had almost forgotten what it was like to hear it. He only deserves credit for standing and saying what was right, which was a pretty gutsy move in today's political landscape.
Seriously man, this isn't about factionalizing based on primary candidates, and I would think that you would have realized this by now.
oh but it is
by absentee
It's exactly the same argument from early on in the primaries. It's the same old "if you were a REAL conservative, you'd be for blank".
absentee
Also Find Me Here.
Just know that even though I am a Fred-headed Rudy-girl, I still ::heart:: you.
And I'm even voting for Johnny Mac. And saying nice things about him when I agree with him. And defending him when the idiots try to attack.
'Cuz we are all in this together.
And to borrow another great Forrest Gump line,
that's all I have to say about that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just a typical, small town, white girl...
I like Rudy gal better C17
by BlackRepub
Just goes with your Southerner image a little bit better-Rudy girl sounds more like you were co opted into Seattle's culture ;-)
The trouble with our friend John McCain isn't that he's ignorant, but that he knows so much that isn't so.
Works for me. I just can't be a Rudyhead
by c17wife
because that would mean my boy is mad at me and I can't stand that.
So, I'm a Fred-headed Rudy-gal that is going to vote for Johnny Mac in order to keep the Marxist and his harpy away from the big white house.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just a typical, small town, white girl...
Imagine we're back in 1980, when Reagan lost to Ford. Certainly there were conservatives that supported Ford, but I would imagine when one was discussing the principles of conservatism, you would likely evoke Reagan as the one who espoused those values, and talk about the Reagan revolution. This isn't about hurting your feelings, or calling you an unprincipled whore or any of that. The movement has been dead for the last twenty years, and we haven't had a conservative since Reagan-certainly not Bush I or II. Fred is a movement conservative, and while you may not buy the founder, he was the most recent spokesman for conservatism. Now one thing you cannot call McCain is a movement conservative, while he may have conservative traits and principles, he is not part of the Conservative movement. Fred was a movement conservatism, and by calling ourselves Fredheads, its more about being a part of the revived conservative movement than slamming conservatives that chose to back McCain. As you decreed me not to bend over and carry water, I decree you to not feel like an unprincipled whore. It's about the modern movement, not the man. If Ricky Bobby had been the new voice of conservatism, we'd talk about the RickyRevolution.
The trouble with our friend John McCain isn't that he's ignorant, but that he knows so much that isn't so.
movement
by absentee
The conservative movement is stalled, so a stalled campaign should be the symbol of unstalling it?
Great conservatives abound, they just aren't running for President.
We can't undo the primaries. They happened. Renaming the conservative movement in honor of the worst campaign doesn't make sense to me. The fact that the worst campaign arguably damaged the progress of the movement makes it even worse. Sure it was nice to hear Fred speak conservative principles on the national stage. It was also nice to hear Mitt's speech at CPAC. But that doesn't make him a standard bearer. And I daresay trying to name the conservative movement Mittishness would meet no small resistance.
I maintain exactly what I said in the original. The tone of the fredhead movement is clear and it's exclusionary. Identifying the conservative movement et al as Fredheadedness is something I'll always dislike.
... ... but majority rules so what can you do? I'll remain the filthy McCainer.
absentee
Also Find Me Here.
I am willing to concede this far
by E Pluribus Unum
OK, Caleb, for you, and ONLY for you, I am willing to change my diary titles to the like: Thinking Like Fred : Kirk's Conservatism School - Principle #2: The Wisdom of Continuity
I do not understand the animus you feel about this whole thing, and I think you are far off-base when you talk about this driving factions (I think things like Cap'n Trade are far more divisive of the party faithful), and I maintain that it only excludes those who exclude themselves by clinging to an alternative definition of conservatism for the sake of John McCain being able to use the title.
But I greatly value your friendship and your judgment. I would not do this for ANYBODY else. But I implore you, push me no further on this. The animus you feel over the invocation of the use of Fred's name in association with originalist conservative principles is matched in intensity by my resentment for being asked to drop the name.
Unfair. Unbalanced. Unmedicated. -- IMAO
I'm counting on you ....dont reply to this anymore...lol
by speciallist
n/t
it has nothing
by absentee
Sigh. I typed a speech that would make the phone book feel self-consciously small, but I've deleted it. It doesn't matter. After all the blogs I've written about not redefining anything, if you and hooah of all people still think this has anything to do with alternative definitions, then I've said nothing worth anything at all.
I withdraw my objection. Please call it anything you like.
absentee
Also Find Me Here.
Absentee gets a Gold star on his Man card..well done
by speciallist
n/t
This stuff is frustrating
by Hooah Mac
You've said a lot of good things. We just disagree - not even with the content - but with the way of expressing it. In this instance I can't speak for EPU, but I have been trying to explain myself, not come down on you.
You know I consider you a friend, and I value your opinion. Where do we go from here? The intention is not to be exclusionary, but rather to clarify our starting point. Here at RedState we are all trying to go in roughly the same direction, but we spend too much time arguing whether we should be using minivans or Harleys; or whether we should take the freeway or the back road.
Whatever, although some clearly are emotionally charged about this, I am not(was a while back but not anymore). Absentee, check out my diary posting from today and tell me if we are on the same page there.
I saw that before
by absentee
I even replied to you here. We're on the same page goals-wise, and that's part of my gripe.
Maybe I shouldn't see a "keep out" sign when topics of interest are labeled as Fred, but I do. It's probably me. I've surrendered in any case.
The most important thing is that Hooah posted at Redstate. That's the best news in weeks!
absentee
Also Find Me Here.
Exceedingly unhelpful
by E Pluribus Unum
This is right along the lines of the wife saying "OK, you win the argument, so enjoy sleeping on the couch". There is no joy in this.
What is the deal? Who is excluded? What factions? You only say it's divisive and exclusionary, and leave that hanging as if I'm supposed to draw some inference OTHER than the McCainies who want to coopt the term "conservative".
So who then? Who would possibly be offended? I know the RudyGirls and Romneybots seem to have chimed in, in a positive sense, to the FreadHead diaries (nobody likes to admit they're a Huckabot so I hear nothing from that crowd either way).
Unfair. Unbalanced. Unmedicated. -- IMAO
helpful
by absentee
The neverending story.
Look at your reply. How do you say it isn't still primary factioning? You're talking huckabots and mccainies and rudygirls ... it's exactly like I say. Putting Fred in the title does exactly this. It continues to identify Redstaters as members of these groups.
"OTHER than the McCainies who want to coopt the term 'conservative'.
If you can explain to me how objecting to using Fred's name as the shorthand identifier for conservative values means I want to redefine those values then please do. Otherwise, being that I'm in agreement, explicitly, with your every post regarding those definitions, I remain steadfastly assured that I've not tried to redefine one tiny iota of anything.
You can't make it about McCain. But the fact that you think it is is exactly the point. That is exactly the problem with naming it after Fred. It makes you Fred and me McCain. Naming it after Reagan or some other figure wouldn't do that. And it's patently absurd to argue that naming it after Reagan or Burke or Kirk or bleeding Frasier would somehow be coopting it for McCain because it wasn't named for Fred. Is he really so titanic?
absentee
Also Find Me Here.
myself. How can I expect to define other "factions" of conservatism!
Good job speciallist!
Socialism doesn't work. It looks nice on paper, but it's been tried and it's failed miserably every time (usually accompanied by widespread death and suffering).
Proud member of the V.R.W.C.
Paleo Con Here
by Joseph Phelps
I would have to deem myself a paleo con. I am definitely opposed to unchecked welfare and affirmative action, as well as the exorbitant amount of US foreign aid in general, but in particular to Israel. I am a strong believer in the tenets of the Constitution, and b
Identity politics is for liberal Ds, and not for
conservative Rs. I kind of resent pigeon-holing as a
[insert name]-con different individuals in the Republican Party. The liberal Ds see 2 blacks, 2
hispanics, and 2 jews. The conservative Rs see Leroy,
Willie, Juan, Pedro, Jacob, and Levi. Recognition of
the individual instead of the group is a key
difference in our politics.
The purpose of communist propaganda was not to persuade or convince, nor to inform, but to humiliate; and therefore, the less it corresponded to reality the better.
Dr. Theodore Dalrymple